Discussion - scenario "Poland - 1939"

[Igor Kulakov]

1939: Invasion of Poland (Operation Fall Weiss)

[Khanti]

My two short first impressions:
1. Lethality of weapons is too high. In SOE2 there is not "disabled" tanks/cars/soldiers, so all equipment that are damaged are removed from units to pool. This can kill a unit instant. Not very realistic results in battles. In my game Poland lost 170.000 dead men during 4 days of fighting with Germany. In REAL war Polish army lost 65.000 troops during 30 days. [впечатление]
2. Soviet forces attacked Poland 17th September, so there should be some problems for Soviets in attacking early or there will be fiction war not even close to reality. I suggest removing from Soviet units ALL cars/horses to slow their movement. Put it in pool instead so Soviet player will need outfit units BEFORE he will attack Poland. [предложение]

[trurle]

Reasonable. I also noticed tempo of war in SOE2 is too high- but blame it for not implemented "forced retreat".
By the way did you noticed "wounded" pool? 75% of casualties are moved to wounded.

[Igor Kulakov]

1) Oleg AKA trurle already answer about wounded (each day - 1% wounded - is dead, 1% -recovering and placed to elite personnel pool).
2) About temp of game . Can select in main menu - option - parameter "turn = 1 day / turn = 2 day (fast)". Can use this.
3) about transport -> pool. Good idea. Need discussion - more "+" or more "-"

[trurle]

2) About temp of game . Can select in main menu - option - parameter "turn = 1 day / turn = 2 day (fast)". Can use this.

No. Speed of units more or less correct with option 1 turn=1 day (infantry unit can move by road 80-100 km per day in ideal conditions).
I assume 1 tile~20km

The problem is not the temp of units movement, but the temp of casualties. Every day a decisive battle..and all units die on spot, not trying to run away.
In realty, local commanders had some freedom to retreat from fatally compromised situation.
For example, if defending unit estimate it will lose more than twice the attacker, it may decide to attempt to disengage

[Khanti]

1.As I said " In my game Poland lost 170.000 dead men during 4 days of fighting with Germany." I played Germany. Poland had 220.000 wounded in those 4 days.

Next time when AI plays Germany there are less losses but in 6 days Poland lost 85.000. I played USSR in that game.
AI Germany conquered Poland in 8 days (with my help as Soviet union, but I only took cities, no fighting). Human losses for Polish were terrible, some 350.000 troops were alive in units (rest dead or wounded).

So casualties are HIGH in scenario. I know it's only a game, but it could be fixed to REAL level of losses in war. I can't play main super scenario (need to buy key to save game, it's huge) but I played 1939 and 1940 scenarios (without saving).
My opinion is that too many troops/guns/tanks are dead/killed/wounded in every day battles. Some 50% less would be acceptable maybe.

2. Soviet transport. Units without cars/horses moves slower. But I needed only 3 days to fully staff my Soviet units to full movement. So I suggest removing ALL their horses/cars and put pool to 0 (zero) +100? daily repaired. This way Soviet forces will move slowly and gain full movement in a week or two weeks (17 days in real).

3. Poland did not DEFEND from the east. As Soviets I could take their cities without single fight. There should be some self-defense/border-defense units (KOP battalions perhaps).

4. Winning game does not bring any war statistics. Just an screen Coalition 1/2 was victorious. I wanted to see something like:
War lasts for 12 days (or 445 days or whatever)
We killed x enemy troops, lost x troops.
We took x enemy cities, lost x cities.

[trurle]

1.As I said " In my game Poland lost 170.000 dead men during 4 days of fighting with Germany." I played Germany. Poland had 220.000 wounded in those 4 days.

Next time when AI plays Germany there are less losses but in 6 days Poland lost 85.000. I played USSR in that game.
AI Germany conquered Poland in 8 days (with my help as Soviet union, but I only took cities, no fighting). Human losses for Polish were terrible, some 350.000 troops were alive in units (rest dead or wounded).

So casualties are HIGH in scenario. I know it's only a game, but it could be fixed to REAL level of losses in war. I can't play main super scenario (need to buy key to save game, it's huge) but I played 1939 and 1940 scenarios (without saving).
My opinion is that too many troops/guns/tanks are dead/killed/wounded in every day battles. Some 50% less would be acceptable maybe.

2. Soviet transport. Units without cars/horses moves slower. But I needed only 3 days to fully staff my Soviet units to full movement. So I suggest removing ALL their horses/cars and put pool to 0 (zero) +100? daily repaired. This way Soviet forces will move slowly and gain full movement in a week or two weeks (17 days in real).

3. Poland did not DEFEND from the east. As Soviets I could take their cities without single fight. There should be some self-defense/border-defense units (KOP battalions perhaps).

4. Winning game does not bring any war statistics. Just an screen Coalition 1/2 was victorious. I wanted to see something like:
War lasts for 12 days (or 445 days or whatever)
We killed x enemy troops, lost x troops.
We took x enemy cities, lost x cities.

1. Correct. But i do not think just multiplying casualties by 0.5 will help. Casualties are strongly nonlinear dependent on amount of military equipment. Try to fight infantry vs infantry only and you will get typically no casualties at all. Most likely problem is some error in number of deployed weapons or in weapons strength database. (actually weapons database is of shoddy quality)
2. May be will work. Seems nice idea. But you need to calculate actual logistic capability of Soviets - just saying "100 horses/day" is not enough.
3. This game is HISTORICAL. If you want to add KOP battalions, you should find historical data about their deployment.
4. Question forwarded to developer. I was never personally bothered about victory screen, but i understand cool victory summary is the object of pride - therefore desirable.

[Khanti]

3. This game is HISTORICAL. If you want to add KOP battalions, you should find historical data about their deployment.

As you wish.
Rus
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0% ... 8%D0%B0%29
Eng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Protection_Corps

KOP = Polish military formation that was created in 1924 to defend the country's eastern borders against armed Soviet incursions and local bandits.

Deployment - "The brigades were given new names, after the area they were stationed in:"

After Soviet invasion on 17 September Korpus Ochrony Pogranicza had 26 battalions on eastern border. They were to delay Soviet movement not stop it, but IN GAME they should prevent FAST Soviet advance, so the scenario could last longer than 7 days

Localization of all 26 battalions:

HQ Regiment KOP "Wilno" in Wilno
01 Batalion KOP "Orany" in Orany
02 Batalion KOP "Troki" in Troki
03 Batalion KOP "Niemenczyn" in Niemenczyn
04 Batalion KOP "Nowe Święciany" in Nowe Święciany
HQ Regiment KOP "Głębokie" in Głębokie
05 Batalion KOP "Łużki" in Łużki
06 Batalion KOP "Podświle" in Podświle
HQ Dziśnieńska Half-Brigade Obrony Narodowej in Dzisna (militia)
07 Batalion ON "Postawy" in Postawy
08 Batalion ON "Brasław" in Brasław
HQ Regiment KOP "Wilejka" in Wilejka
09 Batalion KOP "Budsław" in Budsław
10 Batalion KOP "Krasne" in Krasne nad Uszą
11 Batalion KOP "Iwieniec" in Iwieniec
CAV Szwadron Kawalerii "Iwieniec" in Iwieniec
CAV Szwadron Kawalerii "Krasne" in Krasne
HQ Regiment KOP "Snów" in Baranowicze
12 Batalion KOP "Stołpce" in Stołpce
13 Batalion KOP "Kleck" in Kleck
HQ Brigade KOP "Polesie" in Łachwa
14 Batalion KOP "Ludwikowo" in Ludwikowo
15 Batalion KOP "Sienkiewicze" in Sienkiewicze
16 Batalion KOP "Dawidgródek" in Dawidgródek
HQ Regiment KOP "Sarny" in Sarny
17 Batalion KOP "Rokitno" in Rokitno
18 Batalion KOP "Bereźne" in Bereźne
CAV Szwadron Kawalerii KOP "Bystrzyce" in Bystrzyce
19 MG Batalion Karabinów Maszynowych Specjalny "Sarny" in Sarny
20 MG Batalion Karabinów Maszynowych Specjalny "Małyńsk" in Małyńsk
HQ Regiment KOP "Zdołbunów" in Zdołbunów
21 Batalion KOP "Hoszcza" in Hoszcza
22 Batalion KOP "Ostróg" in Ostróg
23 Batalion KOP "Dederkały" in Dederkały
CAV Dywizjon Kawalerii "Niewirków" in Niewirków
CAV Szwadron Kawalerii "Dederkały" in Dederkały
HQ Regiment KOP "Czortków" in Czortków
24 Batalion KOP "Skałat" in Skałat
25 Batalion KOP "Kopyczyńce" in Kopyczyńce
26 Batalion KOP "Borszczów" in Borszczów
ENG Enginneer Company "Czortków"

Ordre de Bataille of 31.08.1939
http://www.dws-xip.pl/wojna/jednostki/kop8.jpg

Summary:
- 1 brigade KOP ("Polesie") and 7 regiments KOP ("Wilno", "Głębokie", "Wilejka", "Snów", "Sarny", "Zdołbundów" i "Czortków") had
- 22 battalions KOP,
- 2 fortress battalions (MG),
- 1 cavalry dywizjon (2 squadrons),
- 4 cavalry squadrons,
- 2 militia battalions (ON),
- 1 engineer company (Czortków).
Equivalent of 3 infantry divisions.

I hope you like it.

[Khanti]

2. May be will work. Seems nice idea. But you need to calculate actual logistic capability of Soviets - just saying "100 horses/day" is not enough.

So I calculated. Found one problem. Soviet cavalry division model 39 has horses (6.000) but does NOT need them and can't be replaced if lost. Strange, it's cavalry anyway.

So if ALL infantry units (20 divisions) will lost their horses that is 6.200 horses x 20 = 124.000 horses.
If they should be ready in 17 days that is 124.000 : 17 = 7294 horses a day (for infantry).

9 cavalry divisions should need horses too! (9 x 6.000 = 54.000) if so then 54.000 : 17 = 3176

Maybe 10.470 horses daily? (7294 + 3176) in this scanario.

Cars can be calculated similarly.
But where can I find statistics how many units by type country has? Should I count them manually?

[trurle]

2. May be will work. Seems nice idea. But you need to calculate actual logistic capability of Soviets - just saying "100 horses/day" is not enough.

So I calculated. Found one problem. Soviet cavalry division model 39 has horses (6.000) but does NOT need them and can't be replaced if lost. Strange, it's cavalry anyway.

So if ALL infantry units (20 divisions) will lost their horses that is 6.200 horses x 20 = 124.000 horses.
If they should be ready in 17 days that is 124.000 : 17 = 7294 horses a day (for infantry).

9 cavalry divisions should need horses too! (9 x 6.000 = 54.000) if so then 54.000 : 17 = 3176

Maybe 10.470 horses daily? (7294 + 3176) in this scanario.

Cars can be calculated similarly.
But where can I find statistics how many units by type country has? Should I count them manually?

Horses was used not only for light cavalry, but for towing artillery and supplies as well. So 6000 horses is reasonable.
But solution seems a bit artificial. With such high rates it will be possible to mobilize ~10 divisions until september, 7th.
Stripping USSR units out of ammo at start of scenario as well..it will give readiness date 11th of September - closer to realty.
Will look in details after fixing WWII superscenario.