Soldiers of Empires 2

Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

"Soldiers of Empires II" ("Soldiers of Empires 2") is a highly detailed turn based wargame of the World War Two beginning in 1939.

Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby Igor Kulakov » February 15th, 2014, 11:50 am

1) issue of freedom of the player :-) We should not restrict freedom Player historical framework :-) entire game - it's a question of "what if?"
2) involvement of civil vehicles in the USSR - institutionalized practice of mobilization plans. In the grand scale.
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby trurle » February 15th, 2014, 12:01 pm

Australia: no valid data presented on your link. The table mentioning Australia is hopelessly messed up.
But assuming half of GB motorization (of 0.051 vehicle/man) and proportion of cars usable in army frontline 65% (similar to Germany)
the 7 mln population Australia will have 178 thousands of civilian vehicles stock.
Given 20% requisition (Australian take Dunkirk disaster as their own), the military-available vehicles stock will be 36 thousands.

I placed 50000 vehicles in military stock. Was it wrong?
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby Igor Kulakov » February 15th, 2014, 12:08 pm

My words - only about USSR.
May be 30% for mobilization from civilian cars,... be ok?
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby trurle » February 15th, 2014, 12:13 pm

Igor Kulakov wrote:1) issue of freedom of the player :-) We should not restrict freedom Player historical framework :-) entire game - it's a question of "what if?"
2) involvement of civil vehicles in the USSR - institutionalized practice of mobilization plans. In the grand scale.


If you want to allow player to use militarily 100% of civilian cars stock (for sake of FREEDOM, you should simulate the effects of such high-scale requisition

Roughly:
0-5 % requisition: painless
5-20% requisition: industrial growth arrested
20-50% requisition: industrial power reduced 2% per 1% of requisition
>50% requisition: civilian supply chain failure, localized famine, revolts and army forced to use their trucks to deliver food to civilians instead of combat - therefore negating any requisition benefits for army.

If put these effects into game, making large military pools of cars will be reasonable.

About USSR - i will try to recalculate with 30%. USSR was quite atypical country
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby trurle » February 15th, 2014, 12:42 pm

With 30% requisition and 65% usability USSR stock available to army is 215 thousands cars at beginning of war.
Also fixed Australia and Germany according to recent discussion.

See attached file
Attachments
test.scn.zip
(3.06 MiB) Downloaded 177 times
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby Igor Kulakov » February 15th, 2014, 2:26 pm

trurle wrote:With 30% requisition and 65% usability USSR stock available to army is 215 thousands cars at beginning of war.
Also fixed Australia and Germany according to recent discussion.

See attached file


Ok. Please, not corrected now. My work - input some data to units. After i place superscenario here for your job with other countries data
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby trurle » February 15th, 2014, 2:59 pm

Please be more exact.
What are you going to do?
And what are you expecting from me to fix and when?

Also:
To minimize amount of work, units better to be fixed AFTER geography - because overwise you place units in wrong location
I have looked through Canada and find what amount of geodata to fix is awful. Most of error is "artistic distortion" - look around 426,428 for most weird distortions

Actually, i have an alternative proposal:

1) Freeze current super-scenario

2) Extract landscape geodata from 10' resolution database i have (if we limit to 70S-70N latitudes, map will 2160x840)
3) Merge with cities databases of 1990 and 2000 (i have database with 600000 cities) and extrapolate populations back to 1941
4) Merge with river flow database (i have database with 30' resolution)
5) Merge with railroad database (10' resolution)
6) Merge with ports database (~2000 ports of size Small or larger)
7) Export merged map to SOE2 format

8) Manual cleanup to fix seaway connectivity (Suez, Panama, Dardanelles)
9) Edit manually resulting map to pronounce industrial centers of WWII
10) Import units from previous map (resolution mismatch is only 5.4%, so manual cleanup (re-forming stacks to fill quantization-effect gaps in frontlines) will be minimal
11) Import airbases and fortifications from old game.

Amount of work is approximately the same as fixing old map directly (~400 hours as i estimate)

Your decision?
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby Igor Kulakov » February 15th, 2014, 3:34 pm

trurle wrote:Please be more exact.
What are you going to do?
And what are you expecting from me to fix and when?

Also:
To minimize amount of work, units better to be fixed AFTER geography - because overwise you place units in wrong location
I have looked through Canada and find what amount of geodata to fix is awful. Most of error is "artistic distortion" - look around 426,428 for most weird distortions

Actually, i have an alternative proposal:

1) Freeze current super-scenario

2) Extract landscape geodata from 10' resolution database i have (if we limit to 70S-70N latitudes, map will 2160x840)
3) Merge with cities databases of 1990 and 2000 (i have database with 600000 cities) and extrapolate populations back to 1941
4) Merge with river flow database (i have database with 30' resolution)
5) Merge with railroad database (10' resolution)
6) Merge with ports database (~2000 ports of size Small or larger)
7) Export merged map to SOE2 format

8) Manual cleanup to fix seaway connectivity (Suez, Panama, Dardanelles)
9) Edit manually resulting map to pronounce industrial centers of WWII
10) Import units from previous map (resolution mismatch is only 5.4%, so manual cleanup (re-forming stacks to fill quantization-effect gaps in frontlines) will be minimal
11) Import airbases and fortifications from old game.

Amount of work is approximately the same as fixing old map directly (~400 hours as i estimate)

Your decision?



viewtopic.php?f=9&t=35&p=4446#p4446
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby Khanti » February 15th, 2014, 11:48 pm

New Zealand.
Source: http://www3.stats.govt.nz/New_Zealand_O ... 1_1_126142

Trucks, 2 tons and under 28,621
Trucks, over 2 tons 23,759

In game New Zealand has 300.000 cars ready + 30.000 in repair.
In reality there was 307,931 registered cars in 1939 but with taxis, motorcycles, tractors and passenger cars.
I will only use trucks as army could not militarize passenger cars to get soldiers moving.
So with 100% mobilization (impossible in democratic country) you get 50.000+ cars for army.

Suggestion: 20%-25% so 13.000 ready + 1.300 in repair.

PS: I try to read russian topics using google but not all is clear.
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Re: Discussion - superscenario "World War II 1941 - 1945"

Postby trurle » February 16th, 2014, 4:29 am

Khanti wrote:New Zealand.
Source: http://www3.stats.govt.nz/New_Zealand_O ... 1_1_126142

Trucks, 2 tons and under 28,621
Trucks, over 2 tons 23,759

In game New Zealand has 300.000 cars ready + 30.000 in repair.
In reality there was 307,931 registered cars in 1939 but with taxis, motorcycles, tractors and passenger cars.
I will only use trucks as army could not militarize passenger cars to get soldiers moving.
So with 100% mobilization (impossible in democratic country) you get 50.000+ cars for army.

Suggestion: 20%-25% so 13.000 ready + 1.300 in repair.

PS: I try to read russian topics using google but not all is clear.


Trucks data is correct. But you did not include tractors (which was widely used to tow artillery) and motor-bikes (uses on frontline for reconnaissance and liaison)
Developer's data:
автомобильный парк
1.01.39
Легк. машины (вкл. автобусы) - 210 212 (light cars and buses: not usable on front line)
Грузовики - 51 729 (trucks - on your data 52 thousands - close match) - 20% requisition
Моторные ср-ва - 261 850 ( tractors and motor-bikes: 20% requisition)

Army-available pool total: 10 thousand trucks + 52 thousands tractors and motorbikes = 62 thousands.
Before developer have set requisition to 100%, but seems he already gave it up.
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